Redemption Sunday: Does VCU Making The Final Four Make You Feel Better About Georgetown?
by CasualHoya on Mar 28, 2011 8:30 AM EDT
in Post Season Glory
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PrintMaybe the Hoyas never had a chance.
An NCAA Tournament filled with upsets reached its zenith of crazy yesterday afternoon when the VCU Rams beat the Kansas Jayhawks to reach next weekend's Final Four in Houston. For Georgetown fans, VCU's win helped heal the wounds that were still fresh from a then-embarrassing eighteen point loss to an 11 seed play-in team just last Friday. And today, less than two weeks later, suddenly things don't seem so bad in Hoya Land.
More after The Jump:
You already know the story: VCU is a team from the Colonial Athletic Conference, a team that ESPN's Jay Bilas felt had no business even being in the field of 68 to begin with, a team that had to play its way into the Tournament as an 11-seed, and a team that has since beaten USC (Pac-10), Georgetown (Big East), Purdue (Big 10), Florida State (ACC), Kansas (Big 12) and will play Butler (Horizon) for the chance to play for the National Championship. That last bit is just so insane my keyboard nearly exploded.
So the first question is this:
1) Does VCU's making the Final Four make you feel better about how things ended this year for Georgetown?
For most Hoyas fans, the answer is undoubtedly yes. When you're hanging out in a bar, whether it be next weekend or sometime next year or beyond, you can always say something like "Yeah, we lost to VCU, but they made the Final Four, so it was just, like, destiny or something." You can say that right after you excuse the loss in 2008 due to "the Stephon Curry Express" and then poke your eyes out with a fork when the person you're talking to brings up Ohio in 2010. So yes, VCU's success helps you excuse Georgetown's loss. But...
The better question might be this:
2) Does VCU's making the Final Four help you come to terms with the way the Hoyas played against them?
I think that's the better question, and one that I'll let you guys vote on and then discuss on this glorious Monday of Mondays.
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inbetween answers
vcu advancing to the final four makes georgetown’s loss more tolerable, but the way they lost was not acceptable. i dont think they should have won the game but it should have at least been closer.
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
A broken hand can't break our heart. Hoya Saxa!
by SomebodyBuyAustinaSteak on Mar 28, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
i voted 'no'
the way the hoyas played in the loss still sickens me, and the fact that purdue, fsu, and kansas didn’t look great either makes me wonder how far georgetown could have gotten.
Casually.
That's how I feel as well
Although when I watched FSU and Kansas I thought “no shot we’d beat either of them”
This is EXACTLY the way I feel
In fact…I feel worse now that I know we had a legit shot at making noise…
by VictorPage'sLeftEye on Mar 28, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
accidentally i voted yes
because it did make me feel better about losing, but no, im still pissed by the way we played.
Pass the champagne.
by AlwaysaDrunkNeveraBride on Mar 28, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Too much mental tug-of-war. I couldn't vote at all.
I don’t like that we lost. I don’t like that they played well/hard and I don’t like that we didn’t match their intensity. I don’t know if we would have stepped it up against Purdue (or subsequent opponents).
Yeah, it took me multiple sentences to not answer the question.
by Hoya Saxual on Mar 28, 2011 4:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not the only reason we lost by any means
But I think VCU really benefitted from taking on USC in the play-in game. I didn’t watch that whole game, but if I recall it was probably VCU’s sloppiest out of all their tourney games. So they in effect got to have their worst game against lesser competition and hit their stride going into the “second round.”
by rochesterhoya07 on Mar 28, 2011 9:23 AM EDT reply actions
coach's corner
in the sitdown i did with the coach during the vcu-usc game, he noted that it would be a huge disadvantage to georgetown to have to play the winner of the play-in game for a couple of reasons. first, the reason noted above, but second and more important, that in effect the coaching staff had to scout both teams. so in effect, the hoyas coaching staff was split bw scouting usc and scouting vcu, and then only had 1 day to prep and walk through vcu’s stuff. given that usc and vcu are completely different teams, this was no simple task.
Casually.
Is there any rhyme or reason to who is slated to play the winner of the play-ins?
It didn’t make much of a difference when it was just 16 seeds playing, because they all lose to the 1 seeds anyways. But it does seem to put some middle seeds at a distinct disadvantage compared to similar seeded teams. Did we draw a play-in winner just because of where we fell in the S-curve?
by rochesterhoya07 on Mar 28, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it has...
a lot more to do with the fact that VCU is shooting way above their season average on 3 pointers.
I am epic win.
by Esteban d' Amur on Mar 28, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure we should be faulted
Sure, we didn’t have the best game, but I think that’s not entirely on us, and partly on VCU. Every team they have played have looked like a bunch of lost clowns out there, and I think that’s not a fluke.
by More like Awesome Freeman on Mar 28, 2011 9:53 AM EDT reply actions
shooters
heard jay bilas on mike and mike this morning rattle off some groovy stats which are close to the below as i was texting while driving and wasn’t listening all that closely:
vcu shot 36% from 3 in regular season and is shooting 44% from 3 in tourney. 44% in reg season would have led the nation.
vcu hit 10 or more threes exactly zero times in reg season. vcu has hit 10+ 3s in three games in the ncaa tourney.
vcu has made 27 out of last 51 3 attempts.
Casually.
don't text and drive!
we don’t want to lose you casual.
Pass the champagne.
by AlwaysaDrunkNeveraBride on Mar 28, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
speak for yourself
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
no question we had the talent to go deep
And that’s disappointing. But at least with vcu being hot, it wasn’t as embarassing a loss as the ohio game last year.
Cuse delenda est
by onceahoya on Mar 28, 2011 10:09 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Regardless of VCU (or UConn for BET) success, we were failures
Our team was a disaster. The bigs were completely ineffective, we had no game plan, and looked like a junior college that got a make-a-wish foundation trip to the tournament.
You are judged based on your own performance, not how our opponents play in future games.
Section 101.
by RileysDressLikeAHoyaJersey on Mar 28, 2011 10:14 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
VCU's strategy:
1. Play very, very, fast.
2. Screw with other team’s transition, esp. on turnovers.
3. Get down to perimeter before the other team can set up.
4. Shoot 3.
5. Repeat.
At first I thought that VCU was the scissors to JTIII’s slow, downtempo paper. But after watching VCU against Kansas, where they just blew through an in-your-face trap-heavy defense, I’m not sure anything could have stopped them.
"The enemy is like a woman, weak in face of opposition..." - St. Ignatius
potential for pain next weekend
Plenty of opportunities for the media to dig up moments that make Hoyas squirm. Regardless of who makes it out of the VCU-Butler game, Nova 85 comparisons will abound for the final. If they’re talking about UConn and Kemba, then they’ll be talking about Ray Allen, and BE 96 will crop up (and perhaps Jordan 82 just for good measure). Kentucky – well, why not talk UMass 96, and yet another Cal final four that never happened. And, of course, any VCU game (and One Shining Moment) will feature your 2011 Georgetown Hoyas.
This is going to be so much fun.
KBE
Thank you for that Sir Hoya...
Will be in Vegas lighting myself on fire rather than in my living room. Perfect.
"Before the answer was a 3, I was down in Georgetown with a Hoya chick, lawyer chick....."
by brandonbowmansfootistoobig on Mar 28, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously. Way to ruin my morning.
by who will sex dikembe tonight on Mar 28, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
that's what I'm here for
specifically, to ruin your mornings. All of them. Glad to be of service.
KBE
This. So many painful memories.
I do have to smirk whenever they mention Coach Cal’s previous final fours since according to the NCAA record books those never happened. Wonder what violation he’s committed that will get this one vacated.
by BornonthisBandWagon on Mar 28, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Reply fail.
That would be last year’s violation though, wouldn’t it?
by BornonthisBandWagon on Mar 28, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Can I pick option C. Yes it makes me feel better, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have done better or beaten them.
by hoyasincebirth on Mar 28, 2011 11:36 AM EDT reply actions
AGREED
If there’s a two part question, there’s ultimately four choices. Option C should be what you just said and option D should be: No it doesn’t make me feel better, but VCU has looked unstoppable so Georgetown had no chance.
Also going with option C
by bleeding blue, painted gray on Mar 28, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
So where will Shaka Smart be coaching next year?
Missouri?
NC State?
VCU?
UCONN?
uconn is interesting
if calhoun wins, is he gone?
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Missouri or NC State are attractive enough jobs
For him to leave VCU. If I were him I’d wait until Syracuse, UConn, UCLA, Indiana to open up. I also think Brad Stevens stays at Butler until Coach K leaves Duke.
I bet the Indiana folks...
are kicking themselves. If Crean struggles a little bit, I wouldn’t be surprised if Indiana tries to go after him.
I am epic win.
by Esteban d' Amur on Mar 28, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
seems like indiana is fine, recruiting wise at least
they have 3 five star prospects over the next two years
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes...
but Indiana boosters are a little nuts. I think Crean needs to start winning real soon. Indiana will only tolerate being the fourth best basketball program (at best) in the state for so long.
I am epic win.
by Esteban d' Amur on Mar 28, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
i bet duke hires internally. brey, dawkins, wojo, collins
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's Collins...
he does all the halftime interviews. Seems like they are grooming him for the job.
I am epic win.
by Esteban d' Amur on Mar 28, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
apologies if this has already been posted
Fun with history. Feels like the Hoyas are over represented among the 2 and 4 seeds, but maybe not, maybe we were that dominant. Anyway, will be interesting to track.
KBE
Butler and VCU - The Best Coached Teams?
Sure……….VCU is raining 3s but they are also disruptive as hell on defense and have proven their ability to take the ball inside if they need to. FLA ST and KANSAS are BIG teams…………..yet VCU found a way to win despite rebounding and inside challenges.With different players excelling in each game. Butler is quietly going deep with limited talent and depth. Do these coaches just excel at preparing their teams for specific match-ups and then making appropriate in-game adjustments? Or am I just used to a coach that runs the system and expects execution to prevail (Syracuse game aside)?
With paranoia,
i like brad stevens
and think he is an excellent coach.
but lets not get ahead of ourselves by anointing stevens the next john wooden. butler should have lost to pitt, the last second FTs were bs. they should have lost to florida if billy donovan knew how to design a play instead of telling his players to fire threes at the end of regulation and overtime. not trying to take anything away from butler but the ncaa tournament is a whole lot of luck.
four years ago, jt3 was the new and hot coach every one was raving about. people loved how he systematically destroyed the unc defense in the second half of 2007 regional finals by sticking to his game plan and not changing because of the way a game was being called. i guess now he is just “a coach that runs the system and expects execution to prevail”
coaching is a tough gig if you are only judged based on your last few games.
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
'should have lost'
the fact butler was competitive to the wire against both is what makes him a great coach.
it was quite remarkable to watch him against florida as plays unfolded…he stood there nodding as certain plays unfolded before him as his players would set screens, makes passes etc just as he designed. seemed extremely focused on the execution of the play even if the outcome was not always a make.
Casually.
im not disagreeing he is a great coach. in fact i said he was an excellent coach to begin with.
what would people’s opinions be of him if they lost to pitt? or even odu since they game came down to a last second put back?
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
what would the opinion be of jt3 if green doesn't hit that shot against vandy?
Casually.
by CasualHoya on Mar 28, 2011 2:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
once again raises the question
of what a fanbase values the most. The occasional deep NCAA run, or consistent conference excellence? The first is highly contingent on luck, but protects the coach from a lot of disappointment later on. The second – well, do Pitt fans at some point get frustrated with Dixon’s inability to make serious noise in March and April, and look for someone proven in the tournament, even if it means risking a decade of very strong showings in the conference?
KBE
interesting
did gtown making it to the final four in 2007 unrealistically raise expectations for the program?
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It just comes down to being hot at the right time
VCU had lost 4 straight conference games before their tournament, got it going in the CAA tourney, and then definitely were helped by the play in game.
Unfortunately for Georgetown, the 08-09 team peaked in December, the 09-10 was never consistent enough, and the 09-10 team peaked in February.
So much of it comes down to luck in March, I am more convinced of that than ever after this year.
to answer my own question...
…i dont think 2007 unrealistically raised expectations for the program, but it certainly made me forget how hard it is to get to a final four. gtown hadnt been since 1985 before that.
it blew my mind to find out this was kentucky’s first FF since ’98.
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
ding ding ding ding ding!!
ofcourse they did
let's not forget that butler was a top 20 team preseason
and ended up an 8 seed. Had they not won in the tourney, the Stevens shine would have worn off a lot and people (stupid people) would be asking if he was just benefiting from lucking in Gordon Heyward who picked them over Purdue so his sister could play tennis and he could become a computer engineer.
not saying it’s right, just saying it would happen.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 28, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
and man that is really swollen!! That just makes me feel so bad – I hope he didn’t come back to soon and F it up forever.
In Fairness to JTIII
Fair enough. When things are going well………..the coach is great. When failure occurs, it is the coach’s fault. Neither conclusion being fair. I guess the real issue that I have with JTIII is just his appearance of passivity. It suggests acceptance rather than action. Stoicism rather than fight. Automation instead of motivation. Of course, who knows what goes down in the locker room or during practice. I’d just like to see some more emotion out of coach…………and particularly see that transferred to the way the team plays. I loved the way Shaka (ok…..darling coach of the hour) was able to get a T and stabilize his team just as it looked like Kansas was going to come back. He is not an over the top kind of coach, but there is an intensity there that resonates with his players. JTIII can certainly look good when the team plays well and he is calmly sitting there like it has all been planned out but he can also look bad when things fall apart and he is calmly sitting there like he has no plan nor intention to deal with it. Not fair, but frustrating nonetheless. But he is not going to change………..so he had better get some players who can truly bring the intensity to the court, have a superior will to win and the basketball intelligence that allows them to make their own adjustments in the game. JWALL was a godsend in this respect, and it is not ironic that his team went to the final four (not just the fact that other team members went to the NBA). Chris Wright had a lot of the first two qualities, and was making progress on the third during this season when he got hurt. When we lost Chris Wright, we lost a leader much more than a point guard. After all, we were pretty darn deep at guard. All of a sudden everyone was making one too many passes rather than putting the rock in the hole. The team forgot that they had an inside option (not a great one, but if you don’t try you can’t expect to get open on 3s). And panic ensued on defense as the team switched themselves into confusion. In truth, we looked really bad all around…………which was as much surprising as it was disappointing. I would have expected more. It was not losing the last 5 games…………but the way we lost that really upsets me.
I don’t know much about the new guys coming in, but I think Markel is a fighter who wants to lead (jury is out as to whether he can) and Nate is a beast who wants to win. That is a good start.
With paranoia,
I think we are in good shape
With Nate, Markel and Hollis. All three seem to really give a crap and play defense. As long as they aren’t playing out of position, I am very excited about them for next year.
Smoking Crack
I’m seriously questioning my season tickets.
Henry will be playing 25-30 minutes. Henry! 20-30 minutes! We may break all NCAA turnover records.
I like Starks. Hollis will be a star.
Lubick is good but he will be shut down by double teams (due to sims total ineffectivenss) and also he is prone to foul trouble.
Vee finished the season with Tyler Crawford shot selection.
Are there any other players on the team? From what I saw, Moses needs to follow Ocho Cinco to MLS.
Section 101.
by RileysDressLikeAHoyaJersey on Mar 28, 2011 6:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Did Clark play after the Missou overtime?
Section 101.
by RileysDressLikeAHoyaJersey on Mar 28, 2011 6:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
agree re: fighter
jt3’s passiveness helped the team through all those close games they won from 2006-2008. but he had a fighter in ewing jr. to fire up the team. he led the team in technicals in 2007 and 2008.
we missed the fighter this year. hopefully a combination of lubick and trawick can bring the intensity back.
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
technicals
i recall the freeman one at cincy…what others pop to mind? this may have been the least t’d up team in recent memory.
Casually.
wright got one against vcu
my favorites were pe jr and crawford getting techs in mcdonough against radford. we won by 50+ that game but ewing and crawford still took exception to hard fouls against hibbert.
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 28, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
anyone else
think this is a just a lame FF. VCU and Butler do not have NBA talent, just got lucky at the right time. Kemba is a neat story, but their team was up and down all season. And who likes Kentucky with Cal at the helm? None of these team are great or even very good and I think this years champ will be the weakest in a long time.
the quality of the winner may not be strong
but this is still a compelling final four. there won’t be anyone in the country outside of connecticut or kentucky rooting against butler or vcu next monday night.
can’t even include kentucky since every louisville fan will be rooting for vcu or butler also.
Casually.
Agreed
I don’t think this year’s champion is going to be the “best” team in the country (whatever that actually means), but this shouldn’t be a lame final four. Some people are pitching this as the fight of “good v. evil”, others are still contending (rightfully so) that VCU isn’t getting the respect that it deserves. However you spin it, this will be a good final four. I don’t think any team will go down without a fight, so at the very least we will see good/exciting basketball…even if a traditional powerhouse doesn’t walk away with the win. Isn’t that what march madness is about?
I'm torn
I’m not like a lot of people that have “Big East Loyalty”…in fact, in any normal year, I’d cheer more for the stadium to collapse on Syracuse, Villanova, UConn than for any of them to win. Others, like Louisville, Marquette, most of the other Catholic schools outside of Notre Dame…I’d probably cheer for them a little bit. My problem this year is that I own UConn in a Calcutta (bid pool) and have obviously done pretty well with them…and have a chance to do VERY well with them if they continue to win. I really hate Calhoun and that team…but I really love money. I think I’ll cheer for UConn to win one more game and then lose to Butler.
By the way, a Calcutta is really fun for people who haven’t done one in the past. Much better than just filling out brackets.
"Before the answer was a 3, I was down in Georgetown with a Hoya chick, lawyer chick....."
by brandonbowmansfootistoobig on Mar 28, 2011 5:27 PM EDT reply actions
uconn
agreed…i’d like to see uconn make the final and then lose. and yes, calcutta pools are great, very fun with events like the world cup.
ghana f-cked me when that dude missed a penalty kick, however.
Casually.
I dunno if it's been said yet but
If VCU ends up beating UKY for the title next weekend, they will have have beaten a representative from each of the BCS conferences (plus Horizon) over the course of this tourney. SMH.
It's a fun tournament I think.
Aside from the fact that we got our asses handed to us, it’s been a lot of fun to watch VCU go on their run in this tourney…to see Butler go back to back FF’s, (and I can imagine the lamentation from some of you on this board for Brad Stevens to be the next Hoya HC, but that shit ain’t going down)…UCONN Kembas on the hottest win streak of anyone in the country (and my personal fave to win the whole fucking thing now…reluctantly)…and yes another FF for Coach Cal that will no doubt be vacated in a few years when the inevitable NCAA posse gets to Lexington right on the heels of his departure.
I marched on Leavey to keep the Pub open in the 90's.
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