Early Look at a Program in Transition
by WarmupEwing on Mar 21, 2011 1:17 PM EDT
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I'll have more to say about this once the "State of the Program" threads inevitably appear, but this isn't just any old offseason for Georgetown. Obviously, in terms of team composition, this year's turnover is the most significant since Roy Hibbert, Jonathan Wallace, and Patrick Ewing Jr. graduated. Both that season and this one ended disappointingly early. Thing was, back in 2008 most Hoyas weren't thinking that the JT3 program needed to change, and fast. With DaJuan Summers theoretically coming into his own and Chris Wright / Austin Freeman showing early promise, we figured a re-building year following another shot at the top was in the works. No one shed a tear when Vernon Macklin departed, and suddenly everything was different when Greg Monroe signed. Anyone who would've dared to suggest that we would have zero NCAA wins for the next three years would have been shot for treason. Everyone knows what happened next.
I guess the most cathartic thing about this loss is that the second major phase of JT3's career at GU is over. It will ultimately be remembered by:
- Late-season flameouts- (two of which took place over an agonizingly long period of time)
- A disturbing series of early departures
- Mild regular season success - enough, at least, for there to be reasonable expectation of some post-season returns
- The Rise of the GLOBAL PHENOMENON
Wright, Freeman, Monroe, Summers. All gone. No one is looking at Henry Sims and Jason Clark to be top-level performers or even emotional leaders next season. At best, Clark will probably finish his career at Georgetown playing a "solid holdover" role next season; and Sims will have to vastly improve his game to be remembered as anything other than a sometimes funny, usually frustrating, bench player.
It's my opinion that the successes and failures of the '08-'11 Hoya squads had much more to do with the players than it did with coaching. To some, this is so obvious you are probably mad at me for having caused you to waste time reading it. To others, this is actually an arguable subject and you are probably mad at me for suggesting that JT3 doesn't deserve the lion's share of the blame for failures. We'll debate this endlessly until November, when we can all shut up and just enjoy some basketball together again. My point is, you can expect an entirely new catalogue of strengths and weaknesses next season - I also think the average fan will view JT3's coaching ability in a more positive light 12 months from now.
On the larger scale, we're moving into the third phase of this coaching regime. I'm both excited and worried by the uncertainty surrounding the program at the moment. There's big decisions to be made on the court (how fast will the frontcourt be rebuilt?) off of it (practice facility please?), and on issues in between (when do we start playing in the A-16, because the whole "Big East is a mega-power conference" thing actually seems to be detrimental to everyone). Coincidentally, fan participation has never been more of a commitment (I wrote this instead of documenting my lunch), nor has it ever been more influential (thanks, CasualHoya), so it makes sense for each Hoya to get a vision of what he/she expects.
Anyway, hope springs eternal - Hoya Saxa. See you at the live-blogging of the Masters.
Stay Casual, my friends.
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I share similiar views and am excited
It’s been a depressing few years given what we thought was possible when Chris and Austin inked LOI’s. I genuinely felt we’d have won a national title by this year or at the least, have a 2nd final 4. Staff changes, Riley/Braswell, not getting an extra year out of Greg or DaJuan..Henry being a lost cause for most of his career, etc. It just didn’t happen. I can’t fault the senior class TOO much in their failures because it was just not them that did not work out like we though.
I will say, I think something that is obvious now, is III misses his original staff, big time. Johnson is killing it at Princeton, Broadus was great at Binghamton until *%@! hit the fan and Burke is a head coach now, too. I think currently, Kirby is the only guy on the current staff that is a top flight assistant. (recruiting wise at least)
Staff and players are accountable….and not to single one guy out…but man, Henry Sims turning into a bust absolutely crippled this roster the past 2 years. Which is why it’s nice to see now that they’re over recruiting positions so the same crap doesn’t happen twice.
&
I’ve come to the realization that no overhaul of III’s system is going to take place. And I think he’s not comfortable in doing so and has tried to make sure his roster moving forward is much more similar to the 06/07/08 teams in size.
If you have a system that relies on people interchanging positions, it’s tough making it work with 3 guys under 6’4. If a 6’4 kid gets stuck on the perimeter with the shot clock winding down..good luck. If you have a 6’8 kid..you have a chance. little things like that. And it’s much easier to switch or hedge hard on every screen if you have length/athleticism. You can’t get stuck playing in the half court if you’re small and slow.
So if he’s going to be stubborn, which he is…he better realize what works and what does not in his system. Based on what he’s recruited the past few months..I think he has. Even if these kids don’t turn out to be Jeff/Roy/DaJuan/Pat…they at least fit what he wants to do A LOT better.
*and I dont even want an over haul, but the past 2 years..he could have squeezed more out of these teams if we had ran more and pressed on defense. he didn’t do it. so, like I said..if you’re stubborn, be stubborn with what works.
i can see why jt3 didn't run more or press on defense
both of those require a long bench.While fans wanted Vee to play, I can understand why he didn’t (he doesn’t look comfortable with the offense and often freelances. Not cool if you’re a low minutes player)., though I wish it weren’t so (and it better not be next year).
we were really a seven deep bench. once again, three players over 30 minutes a game. I’m hoping that with no “superstar” seniors like Wright and Freeman, a leveling of the talent, we’ll see JT3 use a longer bench.
Look at L’ville. they had 10 players go over 10 minutes per game. Us? 8 (and the 8th is benimon). A large part of that was the gap between the top five or six players and the next group of players. Next year, that won’t be true.
Hopefully, that means more aggressive subs, more aggressive defense, and more pressing. I’m not confident, but for once, the roster makes sense for that style.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 21, 2011 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
JTIII
Let’s face it, the princeton offense was created to even the playing field a bit for the less athletic smaller schools against the powerhouses. When you look at Jeff Green and Greg Monroe and their time at GTown the biggest flaw was there inability to take over a ball game, maybe they’re passive individuals or maybe JTIII’s system is strangling superstar’s abilities to take over when needed. This system isn’t exactly a big tool to use in recruiting either. Georgetown will never win anything significant without getting talent and letting the talent grow, not harnessing it into some system where everything’s based on screens, cuts and such.
Multiple issues, but for starters...
The Princeton offense was designed to help Princeton win at the Ivy League level, where it enjoys the same level of athletic prowess as the rest of the conference. The fact that it can work against teams large and small is just a sign that it is a pretty effective system when run correctly.
This
In fact, due to his success and thus recruiting edge, Carril’s Princeton teams were often more talented than their Ivy opposition.
What are these assertions!?
by DHB Enterprises on Mar 21, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think people talk about "the offense" and Stubbornness without actually watching how the team plays.
When I see the team, It hardly appears to be running some sort of methodical offense. How many points in transition did we score in the Mizzou game? How many “back-door cuts” did we run in big east play.
We were top 5 in the nation (per Kenpom) in 2 pt FG % (INCLUDING the late-season flameouts by Vaughn and Freeman). If “the system” just encourages good passing and effective FG%, why are we bitching?
Anyone who watches Georgetown’s games knows that we were killed by defense this year. (Not even in top 100 in opponents 3 pt %).
Also — JTIII has not only put players in the NBA — but they have done well! “taking over a game” is a personality trait, that, FRANKLY, can be just as harmful as useful. Take a look at Scoop over at Cuse to see what I mean.
Defense,Rebounding, Strategy, Substituting and TO's
Has been hurting the hoyas the past 4 yrs, and after every year we as fans are only hoping that JT3 is ‘learning’ from these flaws.
Particularly this year (some parts going into next year as well):
Defense ~ lack the attitude to play hard (also being aggressive) consistently
Rebounding ~ Not enough length at times (JV 6’9", NL 6’8", Ayegba 6’8" (undersized bigs), HS 6’11" (has the length but not the width)), and the incoming class (Adams 6’8", Hopkins 6’8", Whittington 6’8". I’m not going to say that these kids will not grow, however grab a few a few player who already have the length/size, etc.
Strategy ~ some very head scratching moments from timeouts and or stoppage of play, also ‘again’ when the bigs have the ball the final seconds out on the perimeter shooting jumpers. Also just making ‘adjustments’ in general and stop overly relying on your system to beat teams.
Subs ~ this team was deeper this year (minus Bowen), but I believe JT3 should’ve given more playing time to Caprio,Ayegba (even though he was suspended for the 1st 9 games), Vee (minus the attitude at times), Daughtery, ‘use the players’ from what you have on the team.
TO’s ~ this is the norm when the TO’s takes you out of the flow of the game (I think like 14 a game, the Hoyas averaged.)
playing time to caprio, ayegba, and daugherty?
for why?
the team was not deep. that’s from two years of missed recruiting due to coaching staff turnover, an early NBA entrance, and some decommits/recruiting errors.
As for rebounding, I do blame the coaching. The team is too committed to making the other team miss that it rarely leaves someone in the post ready for a rebound. Especially when your bigs aren’t particularly athletic (Vaughn, a wonderful hustling player, is not a springy athlete in the post), that’s a big problem. Half of his early fouls came from trying to get a rebound after trying to alter a shot. Too often we had two guys try to alter a shot and neither was ready for the rebounding. Taller or not, that’s a flaw in the defensive scheme that needs to be resolved.
As for defense, Freeman was too small to defend SFs, Clark has some bad habits at times, and Wright tried but just wasn’t that great on defense. Couple that with a thin front court (and Hollis playing out of position too), and the defense is not built for success. That’s why, when Hollis moved to the 3 and Nate was at the 4, the defense improved. The matchups were better and the defense improved. the stats show it—this team was not built for defense. JT3, in some ways, should have been more rigid and forced someone to the bench so we could play decent defense. Sorry Jason, you’ll get your 30 minutes, but from the bench. That’d have been very helpful
The hoyas had top 20 defense when Roy/Jeff/Jon were around (and I think were’ #22 according to pomeroy with Roy/Jon). Jon wasn’t a great defender. Roy was a great post presence by himself. Ideally, with a deeper bench and players playing their natural position, we can return to that defense. Quite simply, this version of the hoyas was built around offense first because we had no defender to build around. Clark could have been, but you can’t anchor a defense around a single perimeter defender (unless you let him freelance, and that’d have been bad + clark wasn’t playing up to that level).
This team has the chance to surprise people. why? because the real problem this season (the defense) is the one area where next year’s team SHOULD be better than this year’s.
Guards:
Starks can be as good as wright on defense.
Vee has the potential to be a real pest. not quite Rivers level, but that type + not painful on offense.
Clark: for all people talk about his ball handling, I don’t care. It’s ok, it can/should be better. What’s key is he needs to become an imposing defender. He can…he’s shown flashes. That’s what I want him to work on.
Bowen: he’s got the athleticism. Hoepfully he knows you get minutes based on defense.
Wing:
Hollis at the 3 is athletic enough, big enough, and shows decent form.
Trawick rugged defender who prides himself on his D. LOVE IT. hopefully it’s actually good.
Post:
Henry’s got the length to be the shot blocking threat.
Nate’s rugged and should learn to control his fouling after a year of playing
Ayegba/Adams/Hopkins: first, that’s a lot of potential fouls. Second, Ayegba’s supposedly a shot blocker, Adams seems to rebound well, and Hopkins provides decent length.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
so much of next season depends on henry's improvement in the offseason
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 22, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
if thats true
i’m more depressed today than i was yesterday
I don't think it does.
I think it depends on improvement from “the post” be it Henry, Ayegba, Lubick or one of the new guys.
Bottomline, if we can have 2 legit shot blockers and 2 legit PFs next year, that’d be a first since we had Roy, Jeff, PE Jr. and Macklin.
shit, even just a rotation of 3 legit post players and a fourth who isn’t a complete embarrassment.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
what is starting lineup next year?
starks, clark, hollis, lubick, sims
i really hope we dont go with starks, sanford, clark, hollis, lubick. recipe for DISASTER
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 22, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
If we start three guards again
I will really start to get on the JT3 hate train. IT DOESNT FUCKING WORK, see 2008-2011
if sanford knows he is coming off the bench next year
any chance he sticks around?
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 22, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
if vee sanford thinks he should be starting for georgetown
he’s a good kid and i wish him well
Casually.
this is a big offseason for vee
assuming he sticks, hopefully he can work to grasp whatever it is the coaching staff clearly felt he didn’t during the season. i’d also like to see him add some bulk, but of course that goes for the entire team.
Casually.
My lineup:
Starters: Sims, Lubick, Hollis, Clark, Starks
Bench by position
Sims: Ayegba/Adams (all three should get minutes. Maximize fouls)
Lubick: Benimon/Hopkins (Benimon only to help Hopkins adjust and slowly removed from rotation over time. Also with occasional small ball by shifting Hollis +inserting Trawick if we don’t need two post defenders)
Hollis: Trawick (10-15 minutes, growing to maybe 20 if we let him back up the 2 guard at times)
Clark: Trawick/Bowen (I’m not sure Trawick’s better position. I think SF, but might be wrong.)
Starks: Sanford (again, he could move to 2 guard and shift Clark over at times, etc.)
The nice thing this year is that the jumble of the rotation is @ SF with 3 or 4 guys who could play SF/SG instead of at SG where we needed to find 60+ minutes for guys who should not be SFs.
this year, the sum of all parts was greater than the whole because our positions sucked. Next year, i think the opposite could be true. could i the operative word.
starting 3 guards will, like jgd, make me join the jt3 hate train*. I also don’t believe JT3 “wants” to do that. If he did, he’d have recruited a lot more guards. I think he’s sick of the 3G offense too.
*beginning in the big east schedule. I’ll give then OOC to get the frosh up to speed.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
whittington can give hollis a rest too
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 22, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks. knew i forgot someone!
further proof the roster “logjam” (if there is one) has moved from SG to SF.
it really depends on who is able to play as a frosh/redshirt-esque sophomore, so a better overall summary:
C Sims/Ayegba/Adams
PF: Lubick/Hopkins/Benimon
SF: Hollis/Trawick/Bowen/Whittington
SG: Clark/Bowen/Trawick/Sanford
PG: Starks/Sanford/Clark
Only really concerning lack of depth is at PF (Hopkins might not be ready/Benimon is benimon). However, we could go small at times (uggh) or go big and move Sims to the 4 when Ayegba/Adams are on the court if we need.
Compare that to this year’s depth chart:
C: Vaughn/Sims/Ayegba* not really
PF: Lubick/Hollis/Benimon
SF: Freeman/Hollis
SG: Clark/Freeman/Sanford *not really
PG: Wright/Starks
The potential to play a balanced lineup is so much stronger.
I am delusion
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post
Rebounding ~,I agree with you on the rebounding aspect it does fall on the coach, b/c it was ‘too’ many lapses in rotation that JT3 should have addressed during practice and during specific adjustments in the game.
Strategy ~ Alot of the plays are for the high post and this makes the big out of position when it comes to rebounding so this pretty much falls in the same category along with rebounding.
Subs ~ also I agree that coaching turnovers/early entry to the NBA does play a part in the matter, however I believe it should have been vital to instill some confidence in your bench in certain times and then JT3 handicaps himself by using the short bench, and this is putting pressure on his starters to ‘make’ those shots.
Toughness ~ this is where I see JT3 is trying to finally bring in some players who can bring in some toughness to the team (I truly like Lubick, he’ll be a force next year as he bulks up) like JT5 and Adams. Now the Hopkins kid, it’s been known for him to “disappear” in stretches in games and we the Hoyas don’t need this when it comes to crunch time.
But we shall see….
agree
im definitely most excited for trawick
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 22, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
i'm ok with not getting offensive rebounds. those are nice but not necessary
and certainly not a strength of the princeton offense, as you note.
the rebounding lapses are infuriating and what scares me is that it has been true with every post presence we’ve had since JT3. We have the bodies to be a better rebounding team, but JT3 doesn’t emphasize the rebound on defense. I’m curious to see how important protecting the boards actually is, statistically. I know it’s a heartbreaker as a fan, but maybe it doesn’t matter as much as it seems. I doubt that. One way to protect that is to send a third member of the team into the paint to grab rebounds. Once again, though, we’ve traditionally had a guard play that SF position, so that’s not really helpful. Ideally, with a more balanced squad, that will help protect the boards a bit. Hollis is willing to rebound as a 3. Trawick sounds like he’d enjoy it too. If two bigs go for the shot, at least we’ll now have a 3 who will try to rebound instead of a 2 who generally didn’t try that hard (sorry, Austin, but you didn’t—because you’re a guard) + was too small to really succeed anyway.
JT3, other than benching Vee (which at this point, has to be about something I don’t know as a fan), played a pretty deep bench early in the season and then shortened it. That makes sense, because honestly, what bench player did you want to see more of (again, other than Vee). Markel? He was raw. Benimon? I doubt it. Sims? He was as inconsistent as ever. Ayegba? I think people are deluding themselves about him—he didn’t know the offense + wasn’t sure of his defensive positioning either. Next year, he should be in the rotation.
I do believe the team’s overall balance is poised to resolve these issues in a way it hasn’t previously, even as the talent level is lower and the team is younger. I hope JT3 takes advantage of that.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
good points
Subs ~ I agree with you that JT3 did use his bench early on into the season and then shortened it as time went on, but he’s always the first proponent of the statement dealing with what cards you’ve been dealt with, but it’s like he’s going againgst his own statement in this regards. IMO, the team as a whole should have the understanding of ‘trial by fire’, learning their assignments through practicing with the teams and having the trust of the coach (he’s recruiting the players with the high level bball IQ), and for some reason this is lacking. It’s like JT3 doesn’t want his team to take their ‘beatings’ early on and damage their confidence, but the trust has to be built with the hand you’ve been dealt with.
Line up ~ as time when on JT3 should’ve back out of the 3 guard line up do to the fact of the 3 guards the Hoyas have cannot create their own shot (so this went against the principle of the Prince-town offense, IMHO), JClark should have been the 6th man off the bench, and keep with the traditional 2 G/1 SF/1 PF/ 1C
as much as i agree with everyone that a 2 G offense is better
there are three outcomes to putting Clark on the bench:
1. He plays the same minutes, nothing really changes.
2. He plays fewer minutes and Hollis becomes a 30+ minute guy (I doubt that’s what would have happened)
3. He plays less, Hollis’ minutes don’t change dramatically, which means we need to find another SF on the roster, which means…more Benimon @ the 3.
basically, our depth at guard was covering up an extreme lack of depth in the frontcourt. Any way in which we play one of our guards less would have mean playing Benimon or Sims more.
As much as everyone wants to criticize Clark (I’m hoping the pinkie is for real), having him out there seems, to me, more beneficial than playing our backup SF/PFs.
I also disagree that chris, austin, and jason can’t create their own shots. They all can. I have no idea why they didn’t more often. That, to me, was the most infuriating part of the season. Clark’s driving ability is better than he showed. Austin’s mid range game is sick, and Chris wasn’t a wrecking ball. Yet they all stopped (except Chris. he only stopped when he broke his damn hand).
by thejerseytornado on Mar 23, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Biggest thing that stood out to me
Over the past 3 years I’ve been a student:
We can beat the number 1 team in the country in the middle of the season.
We get cold at the end of the season.
We crash and burn in the postseason.
It’s very hot and cold, and seems to be dependent on how far into the season we are.
by DownTheHallFromHollis on Mar 21, 2011 3:21 PM EDT reply actions
Ochefu to Nova...
There goes that bright light
We'll be fine
Rome (or Duke/UNC etc in this case) was not built in a day. JT3 can still bring home the talent. That right there is nearly enough to secure his job for the future.
High fives only on three pointers.
by TheYellofAllYells on Mar 21, 2011 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
clearly we need more sanctions
we’re doing it wrong
by RandyMossStoleMySweatshirt on Mar 21, 2011 4:43 PM EDT reply actions
One issue..
that I think needs addressing is conditioning. We wear down over the season year after year. And our big guys seem weak compared to some others. I remember reading about Pat Jr. only doing one rep of 185 at the NBA combine and him saying lifting wasn’t a big deal at GU. It isn’t about strength, its also about being able to take the wear of the BE season. Under JTIII, we seem to lack conditioning.
This has been discussed at length in certain circles
it comes down to nutrition. I’ve seen cousins of mine totally change their life at another school (Pat. league football) and they both said it was nutrition that made the difference. How many times have we read a tweet about Wingo’s?
by Coach K's kneepads on Mar 21, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
while i agree conditioning and nutrition are important
i dont think we are in a position to pass judgement based on tweets. would be awfully boring reading tweets about high protein low carb diets, or whatever the hell athletes are supposed to eat.
Good talk.
Casual Hoya
by Hire Esherick on Mar 21, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
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