Is John Thompson III the worst coach in Division 1?
No.
Actually, he's pretty good. Represents the school well, solid recruiter, significant success in his first few years at the helm, overall benefit to the university.
Unless someone was at the game last night and heard him in the huddle saying "Guys, don't guard the perimeter, I'm sure they won't make these", I think folks need to calm the eff down.
If JTIII left tomorrow, about 325 schools would have to have a serious conversation about bringing him in. We are very fortunate to have him.
Stay Casual, my friends.
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Agreed
but he can still improve immensely as an in game tactician. I don’t want him going anywhere, but saying he needs to improve is simply the truth.
High fives only on three pointers.
by TheYellofAllYells on Mar 19, 2010 9:33 AM EDT reply actions
Let's be realistic
The guy rebuilt a program (admittedly with some strong recruits) and led them to the Final Four. Let’s say a big state school (like Oregon) calls – does he listen? I think he has to – although a lot of the blame for this season’s end lies with him, he is somewhat hamstrung by a lack of commitment from the administration.
It would be great to believe that we’ll get recruits based on the Georgetown pedigree but while a Thompson quote that Moses Abraham is the best shot blocker since Ewing sounds great (but is facially untrue and simply a recruiting tool – I think Mourning was pretty good), this kid never saw Ewing play for Georgetown and almost certainly didn’t see much of his time with the Knicks.
Let’s see what happens with Abraham but when IU shows off their facilities, I think that will wow a kid about as much as hearing about some old players. The administration shares culpability for the season.
by itsallthatmatters on Mar 19, 2010 9:53 AM EDT reply actions
I'm sorry but
We were the 2nd largest spender in the Big East this past season. I’d find the article but I’m lazy. This “he doesn’t have the resources” crap is bullshit. We have 3 McDonald’s All Americans, a top 10 draft pick, and a 2nd team all Big East performer. The fact that we share McDonough had NOTHING to do with this team’s performance this year.
It’s all a bunch of excuses. Bottom line, three years in a row this team as underperformed, and underperformed significantly. The players weren’t the same, but somebody else was.
It's not you, it's me.
I don't like the redhead guy
But that’s just because he looks like a tool. I don’t know anything about the assistants.
It's not you, it's me.
Who would you prefer?
Boeheim had a pretty good year.
by The Tao of Kenny Brunner on Mar 19, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying the dude should be fired
But as a fan, I think it’s a fair question to ask. It’s not a blip, it’s not out of the norm. 3 years in a row JT3’s teams have collapsed.
It's not you, it's me.
What is your definition of a collapse?
Obviously, we’re not going to go to the Final Four every year, but what would he have done differently?
2008: Devastating loss to the Stephon Curries in the 2nd round. Sad face. But this is off the heels of a regular season Big East championship. Then Macklin leaves. I do partially fault him for a transfer that would have been helpful this year (even understanding that Macklin likely equals no Vaughn)
2009: Chemistry problem. We could have not recruited Dajuan, but then no 2007 Final Four.
2010: Is the thought that he didn’t adequately prepare them for this type of team? That he didn’t realize that we weren’t stopping their guards? Clark/Wright didn’t get the job done on defense, but who would he have subbed in? The Prince-town offense was fine yesterday. We shot the lights out in the 2nd half. 83 points would have won 12 games yesterday … but not guarding the perimeter was our downfall.
Obviously, we underachieved. This was a team with Sweet 16/Elite 8 potential. But I guess I just don’t see what the second guessing is about. Two years not making the tourney in a row … I’m with you. Three years of not making the Sweet 16, I’m not ready to take JTIII out to the woodshed just yet.
The guys need to practice their free throws, work on endurance, and re-commit themselves to defense. If Greg comes back (HUUUUGE if) then he needs to keep getting stronger. If he doesn’t, then we have a senior-laden team and hopefully a couple of recruits that can get real minutes and contribute by Feb/March.
by The Tao of Kenny Brunner on Mar 19, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
When you are...
A #2 seed and won the Big East, then lose in the 2nd round after being up 17 in the 2nd half, that is a collapse.
The 9th ranked team in the country, having beat the #1 team in the country, then end up 16-15 and lose in the 1st round of the NIT, that is a collapse.
A #3 seed having beaten 2 of the top 4 teams in the country and then lose by 14 in the first round to a team that went 7-9 in the MAC, that is a collapse.
I have no problem with his offense, it’s gorgeous and effective, I have a problem with his ability to motivate his team. I have a problem with the players changing, yet the same issues continue. He is the face of this program, and the program has underperformed. Any unbiased observer has said to me “There is a ton of talent on that team”. And the last 3 years we have collapsed. That’s on him.
It's not you, it's me.
COACHING IS A PROBLEM
JTIII COACHING SKILLS ARE UP AND DOWN. THE TEAM PLAYS A GOOD GAME AND HE AND THE TEAM GET CAUGHT UP IN THE MEDIA HYPE, BELIEVING THEY CAN JUST SHOW UP WITHOUT PLAYING. JTIII STOP SAYING “WHEN WE PLAY WELL WE CAN BEAT ANYONE” WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
THE PRINCETON OFFENSE WILL NOT WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITHOUT MODIFICATION. LEARN HOW TO MAKE MODIFICATIONS DURING THE GAME. HOW MANY COLLAPSES DOES HE NEED IN ORDER TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS TO STRATEGY THAT IS NOT WORKING? STOP BEING SO PREDICTABLE.
A GOOD COACH HAS TO KNOW HOW TO MOTIVATE THE TEAM TO PLAY WITH DISCIPLINE, EMOTION, TENACITY, PRIDE AND COMPETITVE SPIRIT. PRESIDENT OBAMA COMMENTED DURING THE DUKE GAME ABOUT THE SLOPPINESS OF GEORGETOWN PLAY DURING THAT GAME, A POINT JTIII APPARENTLY DID NOT NOTICE. LET PLAYERS UNDERSTAND THAT HE WILL NOT TOLERATE IT, BENCH THE CULPRIT. (A COUPLE OF STARTERS SHOULD BE BENCHED).
GEORGETOWN MEN’S BASKETBALL IS GETTING A BAD REPUTATION AS A LOSER AND IT WILL HAVE A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON RECRUITING.
Revisionist History
When did Georgetown beat the #1 team in the country in 2009?
ONE loss is not a collapse. Last year was a collapse. 2008 and 2010 were not – they were bad losses. The same type of bad losses EVERY team but the eventual national champion will have over the course of a season.
People are ridiculous. JT3 apparently needs to go undefeated in order to be a good coach.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Mar 19, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
im fairly certain they were like #2 or #3
It's not me, It's you
by SomebodyBuyAustinaSteak on Mar 19, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
its true that standards are absurdly inflated
And for the record, I WANT JT3 to stay for a long time…but he HAS to get better at game tactics. He has to get better…and I believe he will.
High fives only on three pointers.
by TheYellofAllYells on Mar 19, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, he sucked at preparing them for that last game against cuse
the one where he thoroughly outcoached and out-tactic’d cuse.
absolutely terrible.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
but we would have those awesome players without the coach?
It is not like the 3 McDonald’s AA, a Top 10 draft pick and 2nd Team All BE came with the crappy facilities, as some sort of packaged deal. Thompson recruited those players, he brought them in despite the below-average facilities. Where would we be with crappy players and a bad coach? Worse off than we are now.
And much on our Top 4 spending is because we play at Verizon and try to compete with the likes of Syracuse, UConn, Louisville.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Mar 19, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
This topic is logically equivilent
to asking “Is Jim Boeheim better than John Thompson III?” I think the question alone deserves a flogging.
One key difference between this years' Tourney loss and others prior
Scratch ’09 and the NIT as a complete wash given chemistry issues, the collapse, and Dajuan Summers.
In reality, our three prior NCAA losses were, arguably, to the teams with the single best individual player in the tournament. ’06 – Florida (Noah or Horford, your pick), ’07 – Ohio St (Oden), ’08 – Davidson (Curry). This year? a transfer from Indiana and some kid who looks like a high school freshman?
by Takin' the Points on Mar 19, 2010 1:57 PM EDT reply actions
Ohio did have a Freeman on their team.
Does that count for something?
by The Tao of Kenny Brunner on Mar 19, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
GOOD OR BAD COMPARISON
Ralph fredigen and jt3 for one reason they both exceeded expectations to start now at least here i expected a championship by now
Charlie Weiss?
High fives only on three pointers.
by TheYellofAllYells on Mar 19, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
he needs to get a bench
add depth players- like macklin before he left and rivers. i forgot was summers a junior last year or was he a senior? i drawing a blank cuz if he was a junior what a moron for leaving early cuz he aint dont jack in the nba if he is even in the league
he wasnt really welcomed back...
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Mar 19, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
its the wrong question
is he the worst coach or is he going to be fired. He’s not and he will not be fired.
The real question is does he learn from his mistakes and is he getting better as a coach. Because if he doesn’t, it’s just a matter of time, a long painful time based on the way the school operates.
There is evidence for both sides of that argument. He clearly learned the value of the intangibles between last year and this year. Would Summers been useful this year? Of course, but not at the risk of ripping the team apart. So he was “encouraged to pursue” an NBA career a year early. Clearly he learned you can’t let things go to the point of fist fights in the locker room and you can’t have dueling point guards fighting for control of the team.
Having said all that, team chemistry was not perfect this year, particularly last night. Watching the huddles and some on court interaction carefully, Chris Wright spent much of the night trying to engage his teamates and, at times, the coaching staff. Most of the night his teamates and coaches looked like it was an impostion to listen to the one guy who came to play.
Much more important are the ingame adjustments. Again it’s a mixed bag. You don’t have great comebacks against elite teams unless you make half time adjustments. But last night was a complete mystery, For the last ten minutes of the game, everyone in my section was screaming that we needed to press them. Nothing else was working, we needed to change the dynamic but despite some impressive work offensively after every basket we go back to the same passive, switch every pick, man to man. It wasn’t working, it was failing miserably, yet we stayed in it.
i don’t know what the right answer should be. But even the two middle schoolers sitting a few rows behind me knew that we needed to try something different. (it was painful after the game listening to the two kids very patient mom explaining the concept of the ncaa tournament that when you lose you’re out and you don’t get to play again. these boys were not happy).
There were also some really questionable calls. His aversion to getting on the refs and getting a well placed techincal i think sent a message to his players that he wasn’t willing to stand up for them. Again, we needed something to change the dynamic of the game and he wasn’t willing to change tactics or even a gesture like a technical.
Finally, the coach brought a team to the arena last night that was not ready to compete. We never really got into the game, despite constant mini-runs that raised our expectations.
I’d like to believe that this is part of the learning process and he’s getting better. I was discouraged by the one post game quote i saw that effectively said sometimes players just make plays. I would have rather heard my players didn’t come prepared to play tonight and that’s on me. We didn’t play hard or effectively tonight and I take responsibility for that. He may have said it and i just didn’t see it. He may not have said it, but i hope he takes it to heart, because if he’s not learning, getting better, it’s only a matter of time, excruciating time.
by sleepyhoya on Mar 19, 2010 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Well thought out
But I disagree that yesterday was the time to say “We were terrible and that’s my fault.” Wounds too raw … the players knew they didn’t get it done, there’s no need for it to be repeated while they were all still in shock.
And you make a good point … we have been good at making adjustments most of the year. We almost did it last night. Wright hits that 3 (we love you, Lumpy) or Bennimon spends half as much time practicing free throws as he does choosing his socks and I think we win the game. But the ball bounced the wrong way and we didn’t have that next level.
I don’t know that’s Thompson’s fault. Maybe it is …
Also, I don’t know how you get a team “ready to play” … they had just spent a week beating okay, good and great teams in a high stakes environment. Doesn’t that qualify as getting them ready to play? I think the best summary of this team came in the Casual Awards. When these guys felt like they had something to prove, they were deadly. When they felt good about themselves, they just died.
As I write this, I’m realizing that Thompson seemed more contented this past week then he has in the whole six years … to me, though that mistake is not part of his character and not something we’ll likely ever see again.
I’m hopeful that Wright emerges as a consensus leader next year. Even w/out Greg I think this is a good team.
by The Tao of Kenny Brunner on Mar 19, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed with the impact of the Benimon missed FT....
albeit, very difficult to isolate one play as the cause…. but all momentum was killed then….. we were down 7 pts with the clock dwindling down…… if he makes both of those we are only down 5pts….. instead he misses the one-and-one….and Ohio comes down and hits a 3….. That’s a 5 pt swing and the nail in the momentum coffin…….
by MerlinWilson'sSister on Mar 19, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, well thought out
But I don’t really buy the “if you don’t get a T, you’re not standing up for your players” argument. You’re not the only one to make it (comes up on TV all the time), but if my coach told me, “I have 20 full years of college basketball experience, y’all have 2, and I’m here to tell you that yelling at the refs doesn’t help you” I would probably believe him. That’s not how he operates, and I think his players know the deal on that one. Besides, it’s not like he never gets emotional at an official. He always has a running dialogue with them. I really just don’t think his players feel hung out to dry by their coach.
by Vee Sanford's Next-door Neighbor on Mar 19, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
hung out to dry
on reflection is too strong. my point is we needed something, anything, to break the spell last night. it was like we were sleepwalking and a quick slap was needed. a change of defense, trapping press to if nothing else give the kids some energy. sitting a few of them down to make the point. getting a t to work the kids up. we needed something that never came>
i dont think it was all his fault. but when a team comes in overconfident consistently and doesn’t put forth consistent effort that’s an issue for the coach as well as the players. Monroe owned up to it last night. i don’t think thompson did.
remember the conn game?
he’s done that. they looked like crap, something happened in the locker room, they woke the hell up.
sometimes even a great coach can’t save a team from sucking. he could be better, sure (they never closed out on 3 pointers and they still run too few inbounds plays), but all this critique seems way too harsh.
jt3’s even-keel and refusal to deviate from his script won him accolades in previous years for bring class and calmness on the court to the squad. now, one shit loss to end the season and it’s a terrible aspect of his? i don’t know about that.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
While I don't have any problems with coach.
I think the argument is it’s one shit loss to end the season after one shit season after another somewhat shitty loss to end the season.
Why so Syracuse?
by HoyaJoker07 on Mar 26, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
what percentage of teams end their season on shit losses though?
most of them do
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Mar 26, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I guess.
I mean I definitely don’t want this fanbase to become Kentucky and always be asking for coaches’ heads. I actually don’t think the Davidson loss said some big thing about Georgetown so much as it said something about Stephen Curry. I’m just saying I know that’s why people are questioning it.
Why so Syracuse?
Freeman
Good or bad coach, I will never understand why he played Freeman for +20 minutes against Dame when he was so sick he couldn’t make it up and down the floor. That doesn’t seem like good coaching.
When Freeman looked sick against Ohio, he played +25 minutes.
Henry Sims started the year with 10 minutes a game. Once it was clear that Henry wasn’t ready for the big east, Thompson moved him to 1-2 minutes a game. But the minutes were the most random times. He would come in for 20 seconds when we were down by 5 and then sit for 20 minutes. He would sit during junk time at the end of games when we were way ahead. It was like JT3 was trying to mentally break him.
Vee Stanford never was given a chance to try to earn some playing time. Even when Freeman was on his deathbed (and on the court), Vee didn’t even sub into the game.
Bennimon has had some terrible games but Thompson seems committed to giving him 20 minutes.
I don’t understand how he works the bench at all.
Section 101.
by RileysDressLikeAHoyaJersey on Mar 20, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions
2 ways we could have had a shot
1) Take a “T”, III. Get your boys fired up! At least then it’ll look like you care.
2) Play physical, get in their kitchen, go a little Gene Smith on ‘em, have Vaughn do a Michael Graham on their asses. Don’t punch ’em in the nuts though (too soon).
We didn’t lose without putting up a fight in the 80’s, and we didn’t lose much at all. Coincidence?
maybe this team just needs to play better defense?
it wasn’t in-game tactics or energy, it was the same bad defensive flaws (not closing out on shooters in particular).
Part of it is coaching (they should have fought through every screen…even though every damn one was moving. the refs sucked, but the players didn’t adapt to that), and part of it is the players. Time for them to work on their perimeter defense more.
last year, the team had a problem in the second halves. That got fixed. This year they had a problem rebounding + closing out on shooters. Considering jt3’s track record of players improving on their weak points year-to-year, I hope they work on fighting through screens and closing out on shooters more.
by thejerseytornado on Mar 22, 2010 7:03 PM EDT reply actions
That I'd agree with.
If “This year they had a problem rebounding” couldn’t be said about almost every year.
Why so Syracuse?
by HoyaJoker07 on Mar 26, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Apropos of nothing...
You can judge coaches by hundreds of variables—recruiting, in-game tactics, motivation, etc. In the end, the only thing that really matters is winning. My opinion is irrelevant, but I think the question is best served by putting what he’s done into context.
Here’s how some other coaches stack up in their first six years (at big/current schools—left out Army for Coach K, Tulsa for Self, BC/OSU for Williams, etc.):
Kryzyzewski (Duke) – NIT (quarters), No Tourney, No Tourney, NCAA 2R, NCAA 2R, NCAA Runner-Up
R. Williams (Kansas) – No Tourney, NCAA 2R, NCAA Runner-Up, NCAA 2R, NCAA F4, NCAA Sweet 16 **Took over a team that just came off of a national championship, so he had benefit of a power program. Also should be noted that they were on probation his first year, hence the No Tourney.
Calipari (UMass) – No Tourney, NIT 1R, NIT F4 (vacated), NCAA S16, NCAA 2R, NCAA 2R
Izzo (Mich State) – NIT 2R, NIT 2R, NCAA S16, NCAA F4, NCAA Champs, NCAA F4 **Took over a good program that had just landed a once-in-a-generation recruiting class (Flintstones), but still impressive
B. Self (Ill/KS) – NCAA E8, NCAA S16, NCAA 2R, NCAA E8, NCAA 1R, NCAA 1R
G. Williams (MD) – NIT 2R, No Tourney, No Tourney, No Tourney, NCAA S16, NCAA S16
B. Donovan (FL) – No Tourney, NIT 1R, NCAA S16, NCAA Runner-p, NCAA 2R, NCAA 1R (then went 2R, 1R, 2R, and back-to-back national champs in years 11-12)
Pitino (KY) – No Tourney, No Tourney, NCAA E8, NCAA F4, NCAA 2R, NCAA E8
Now, JTIII: NIT 3R, NCAA S16, NCAA F4, NCAA 2R, NIT 1R, NCAA 1R
If anything, this takes time. You can objectively say that JTIII’s bell curve isn’t going the right way, but we fell off last year with the youngest team in the country (literally, I believe). This year sucked, but it happens—ask Jay Wright (or Roy Williams or Ben Howland). He took the program to (recently) new heights in 2006/2007, we fell back to earth, and now need to build again. Taken overall, his results don’t look a whole lot different than the other names on the list, particularly those who came into a similar situation (and frankly, look quite similar to Donovan’s track).
One other thing that I would add about Thompson. I can’t think of another coach on the this list (or another elite coach, period) who has had to change their system when they’ve moved to a big job. Whatever you want to say about/call our offense and overall style, but it’s very different what he implemented in 04/05. It’s evolved as we’ve plucked better players, and it’s taken a little while to figure out what type of player fits best in the “Georgetown”/hybrid-Princeton set. He didn’t come in with a system that was necessarily applicable to this level, and he’s adjusted from there.
by Rocktavius on Mar 22, 2010 9:20 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Great Post
Add to the analysis the % of teams that “fell back to earth” after making a Final Four appearance.
Since 2000, nearly 50% of Final Four teams went to the NIT or didn’t make a post season tourney appearance at least once in the 3 years following the Final Four apperance.
Since 2004, 70% of teams went to the NIT or didn’t make a post-season tourney after appearing in the Final Four. The only 6 teams not to have continued “success” in the three years following a Final Four appearance are:
Duke (2004) – they haven’t made it past the Sweet 16 since and had embarrassing 1st round and 2nd round upsets.
UConn (2004) – Look where they are now
UNC (2005) – see above
Michigan St. (2005) – the only outlier
UCLA (2006) see 2 lines above
Kansas (2008) – upset this year in 2nd round
All these teams had talent like Georgetown. And all of them failed to reach expectations.
JT3 is a good coach. Building a program takes time.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Mar 26, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

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